Allow Him To Re-Introduce His Self
(As promised, we are proud to bring you the return of our prodigal son, The Franchise, once a regular No Mas contributor and now the proprietor of one of the best fight-sport sites on the web, jarrypark.com - a.k.a., The Coliseum of Combat Sports Interviews. Chise joins us today to bring his expertise to bear on the number one issue du jour, Floyd Mayweather and his proposed MMA gambit - L)
"UFC's champions can't handle boxing. That's why they are in UFC. Put one of our guys in UFC and he'd be the champion. Any good fighter, he'd straight knock them out…Take Chuck Liddell, put him in the ring with a (boxer) who is just 10-0 and Chuck Liddell would get punished."
-Floyd Mayweather Jr.
April 2007
To those who follow mixed martial arts, Floyd Mayweather's latest flirtation with the sport is actually old news. Think back to the weeks leading up to De La Hoya-Mayweather. At this point, the boxing vs. MMA debate was the talk of the combat sports world and naturally Money May felt compelled to dress down MMA (while Mayweather mentions the "UFC" in his quote I have to think that he was talking about the sport in general. Contrary to what the UFC says, there are, in fact, other viable MMA organizations out there).
In light of his comments, UFC president Dana White reportedly offered up then-UFC Lightweight Champion (155 lbs), Sean Sherk, to face Mayweather and settle the debate once and for all. I mean, that's why MMA was created in the first place, right? To see which form of combat sports would reign supreme in a given match or tournament. However, for one reason or another, any talk of an MMA vs. Boxing mega-fight quickly died down following Mayweather-DLH (and, no, Kimbo Slice vs. Ray Mercer doesn't count).
Now comes news that Mark Cuban is trying to lure Mayweather to compete for his new MMA promotion - HDNet Fights. ESPN and every other sports news outlet under the sun is buzzing over this rumor but let it be known that it was in an interview with JarryPark.com that Cuban first mentioned his intentions of signing Mayweather to an MMA fight.
Truth be told, I have some mixed feelings about all this. I honestly don't believe that we will ever see Mayweather fight an MMA match anytime soon. Maybe in five years when all his mega boxing fights have been accounted for but, right now, I wouldn't hold my breath. The biggest issue with these discussions is that both sports are actually really different. Just because an athlete runs in a football match and a basketball game doesn't make the sports similar. But I suppose that's a different argument for a different day.
Let's forget about my cynical ways for one second. Let's just say he really is interested in settling this debate once and for all. In order for this fight to be presented properly there are several hurdles to conquer: First off, he will probably have to go up against a featherweight MMA fighter (145 lbs). While White offered Sherk as a potential opponent, I can't see Mayweather fighting at 155 lbs nor could I see Sherk or any other MMA lightweight fighter move down to 145 or 147. Right now, the top 145-pounder in the world is the current World Extreme Cagefighting champion, Urijah Faber. He may also be the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world too. The problem with Faber is that his contract is owned by Zuffa (the parent company of the UFC). Cuban has 30 million dollars to spend on a guy like Mayweather. Zuffa doesn't and it would never lend out one of its fighters to another promotion. Witness the fact that they would rather let Randy Couture sit on the sidelines than co-promote a bout between him and the universally recognized top heavyweight fighter in the world - M-1 Global's Fedor Emelianenko.
The next problem is that the WEC is home to most of the top featherweight fighters in North America (Jens Pulver and Jeff Curran come to mind) so if Mayweather really wants to prove himself against the best, well, he is barking up the wrong tree by dealing with Cuban.
That said, they don't call him Money May for nothing. If Cuban is really interested in signing him for 30 million dollars he could challenge a top Japanese fighter like Akitoshi Tamura or Takeshi Inoue. It would be like Inoki-Ali all over again! On second thought, maybe we would rather not see that again.
Anyhow, for the sake of this discussion, let's just say Mayweather and Faber end up fighting each other. For Mayweather's debut to truly mean something to MMA fans Faber needs to be the one representing the sport. The California Kid is almost as cocky as Pretty Boy Floyd (almost), holds an impressive record of 20-1 and is currently enjoying a 12-fight winning streak.
But here comes Mayweather's next hurdle: Faber is a former Division 1 college wrestler, the all-time wins leader for UC Davis (how's that for a coincidence Mr. Large?) and a two-time NCAA D-1 qualifier. Simply put, the man can wrestle. Mayweather, on the other hand, can't.
So, the fight begins. Mayweather is dancing around feeling his opponent out and looking to work in his jab and then...BAM! Faber shoots on him and takes him to the ground. Unchartered territory for the boxing champ, indeed. MMA purists love to point out that you can always teach a wrestler how to box but it's a lot tougher to teach a boxer how to wrestle. They just aren't used to it. Furthermore, a former wrestling champion like Brock Lesnar will probably make a smooth transition into MMA (his UFC debut is on 2/2/08, by the way) because his wrestling skills will lead to a better understanding of jiu jitsu which is the foundation of MMA. You see, Faber's wrestling skills will only take him so far in an MMA match. Once he is on the ground he then goes into jiu jitsu mode. He can look for the ground-and-pound or a whole host of different submissions. How in the world is Mayweather going to defend this? Does he know how to fight off his back? Does he know how fight off an arm-bar submission or a rear-naked choke? Of course not, although he could certainly learn.
And that's where the next and final hurdle comes in. For Mayweather to successfully compete in MMA he needs to learn at least two (maybe three) fighting disciplines. Learn them. From scratch. We'll give him a pass on kickboxing but there is no way he can enjoy the kind of success he is used to in an MMA cage without mastering the art of wrestling and jiu jitsu. Faber has been at this for several years now. He's also been honing his boxing skills since making the transition from wrestling to MMA. This could be one of his easier fights ever.
Mayweather has been actively competing in professional boxing for over eleven years. As witnessed in 24/7, his body has experienced its fair share of bumps and bruises. Is he even able (or willing) to learn two new fighting disciplines at this stage of his career? That remains to be seen.
Floyd, you won't be fooling anyone by taking a fight against another boxer turned MMA fighter where they never go to the ground once yet are competing inside a cage. That's not MMA. If you really wants to excel in your new-found "interest" go away for 18 months - at least. Learn jiu jitsu, learn how to wrestle and while your at it learn how to throw some kicks. Then we can talk. Until then, shut up and fight Cotto already.
"UFC's champions can't handle boxing. That's why they are in UFC. Put one of our guys in UFC and he'd be the champion. Any good fighter, he'd straight knock them out…Take Chuck Liddell, put him in the ring with a (boxer) who is just 10-0 and Chuck Liddell would get punished."
-Floyd Mayweather Jr.
April 2007
To those who follow mixed martial arts, Floyd Mayweather's latest flirtation with the sport is actually old news. Think back to the weeks leading up to De La Hoya-Mayweather. At this point, the boxing vs. MMA debate was the talk of the combat sports world and naturally Money May felt compelled to dress down MMA (while Mayweather mentions the "UFC" in his quote I have to think that he was talking about the sport in general. Contrary to what the UFC says, there are, in fact, other viable MMA organizations out there).
In light of his comments, UFC president Dana White reportedly offered up then-UFC Lightweight Champion (155 lbs), Sean Sherk, to face Mayweather and settle the debate once and for all. I mean, that's why MMA was created in the first place, right? To see which form of combat sports would reign supreme in a given match or tournament. However, for one reason or another, any talk of an MMA vs. Boxing mega-fight quickly died down following Mayweather-DLH (and, no, Kimbo Slice vs. Ray Mercer doesn't count).
Now comes news that Mark Cuban is trying to lure Mayweather to compete for his new MMA promotion - HDNet Fights. ESPN and every other sports news outlet under the sun is buzzing over this rumor but let it be known that it was in an interview with JarryPark.com that Cuban first mentioned his intentions of signing Mayweather to an MMA fight.
Truth be told, I have some mixed feelings about all this. I honestly don't believe that we will ever see Mayweather fight an MMA match anytime soon. Maybe in five years when all his mega boxing fights have been accounted for but, right now, I wouldn't hold my breath. The biggest issue with these discussions is that both sports are actually really different. Just because an athlete runs in a football match and a basketball game doesn't make the sports similar. But I suppose that's a different argument for a different day.
Let's forget about my cynical ways for one second. Let's just say he really is interested in settling this debate once and for all. In order for this fight to be presented properly there are several hurdles to conquer: First off, he will probably have to go up against a featherweight MMA fighter (145 lbs). While White offered Sherk as a potential opponent, I can't see Mayweather fighting at 155 lbs nor could I see Sherk or any other MMA lightweight fighter move down to 145 or 147. Right now, the top 145-pounder in the world is the current World Extreme Cagefighting champion, Urijah Faber. He may also be the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world too. The problem with Faber is that his contract is owned by Zuffa (the parent company of the UFC). Cuban has 30 million dollars to spend on a guy like Mayweather. Zuffa doesn't and it would never lend out one of its fighters to another promotion. Witness the fact that they would rather let Randy Couture sit on the sidelines than co-promote a bout between him and the universally recognized top heavyweight fighter in the world - M-1 Global's Fedor Emelianenko.The next problem is that the WEC is home to most of the top featherweight fighters in North America (Jens Pulver and Jeff Curran come to mind) so if Mayweather really wants to prove himself against the best, well, he is barking up the wrong tree by dealing with Cuban.
That said, they don't call him Money May for nothing. If Cuban is really interested in signing him for 30 million dollars he could challenge a top Japanese fighter like Akitoshi Tamura or Takeshi Inoue. It would be like Inoki-Ali all over again! On second thought, maybe we would rather not see that again.Anyhow, for the sake of this discussion, let's just say Mayweather and Faber end up fighting each other. For Mayweather's debut to truly mean something to MMA fans Faber needs to be the one representing the sport. The California Kid is almost as cocky as Pretty Boy Floyd (almost), holds an impressive record of 20-1 and is currently enjoying a 12-fight winning streak.
But here comes Mayweather's next hurdle: Faber is a former Division 1 college wrestler, the all-time wins leader for UC Davis (how's that for a coincidence Mr. Large?) and a two-time NCAA D-1 qualifier. Simply put, the man can wrestle. Mayweather, on the other hand, can't.
So, the fight begins. Mayweather is dancing around feeling his opponent out and looking to work in his jab and then...BAM! Faber shoots on him and takes him to the ground. Unchartered territory for the boxing champ, indeed. MMA purists love to point out that you can always teach a wrestler how to box but it's a lot tougher to teach a boxer how to wrestle. They just aren't used to it. Furthermore, a former wrestling champion like Brock Lesnar will probably make a smooth transition into MMA (his UFC debut is on 2/2/08, by the way) because his wrestling skills will lead to a better understanding of jiu jitsu which is the foundation of MMA. You see, Faber's wrestling skills will only take him so far in an MMA match. Once he is on the ground he then goes into jiu jitsu mode. He can look for the ground-and-pound or a whole host of different submissions. How in the world is Mayweather going to defend this? Does he know how to fight off his back? Does he know how fight off an arm-bar submission or a rear-naked choke? Of course not, although he could certainly learn.
And that's where the next and final hurdle comes in. For Mayweather to successfully compete in MMA he needs to learn at least two (maybe three) fighting disciplines. Learn them. From scratch. We'll give him a pass on kickboxing but there is no way he can enjoy the kind of success he is used to in an MMA cage without mastering the art of wrestling and jiu jitsu. Faber has been at this for several years now. He's also been honing his boxing skills since making the transition from wrestling to MMA. This could be one of his easier fights ever.Mayweather has been actively competing in professional boxing for over eleven years. As witnessed in 24/7, his body has experienced its fair share of bumps and bruises. Is he even able (or willing) to learn two new fighting disciplines at this stage of his career? That remains to be seen.
Floyd, you won't be fooling anyone by taking a fight against another boxer turned MMA fighter where they never go to the ground once yet are competing inside a cage. That's not MMA. If you really wants to excel in your new-found "interest" go away for 18 months - at least. Learn jiu jitsu, learn how to wrestle and while your at it learn how to throw some kicks. Then we can talk. Until then, shut up and fight Cotto already.
posted by The Franchise at 1:08 PM
11 Comments:
Floyd doesn't plan on going in cold and just boxing. The quotes in the ESPN.com article make that clear:
"We don't have a timetable. Floyd is taking some time off, but Floyd understands what is involved. You have to take time to go out and understand what you're getting involved in, and he's ready to do that." -Leonard Ellerbe
"We are going to let him visit some gyms to talk to some folks about what it would take to learn. He knows it won't be easy."
-Mark Cuban
I know but I get the sense that he doesn't understand just how difficult it is to learn these new techniques. It won't take him 8 months or so especially since all he knows is boxing. Now, he must reprogram himself and learn how to a)execute a whole host of different martial arts and b) learn to defend them. Good luck.
i remember that after dana white challenged floyd to step in the octagon and fight someone like sean sherk, kermit cintron was one of the first in the boxing world to speak on it and man up and express his willingness to take on top ufc fighters(for the right price obviously)
apparently 'killer' was a star wrestler in high school and received a few scholarships to some big time schools. pretty interesting if you ask me.
I'm with you on this one Franchise. I don't know much bout the octagon, but I just can't see anyone surviving there without decent technique on the floor.. you just can be brought down too quickly.
I guess a big one-punch guy, probably like the mentioned Cintron or Pavlik could stand a chance, just because they have a chance of ending the fight quick if the MMA-guy is storming in. But Floyd? No way.
It seems everyone is in agreement, and yes, I think if Floyd were to be hasty, he would get his ass beat in the 1st round.
I think Floyd was a deserving FOY for 2007, and he has nothing left to prove. But the only reason he would dabble in MMA at this point is for money, but he himself said in 24/7 that he has enough money.
Floyd and Cuban are peas in a pod, and there is a zero % chance Floyd gets in the octagon. He knows that-- he and Cuban are revelling in the fact that we're still talking about them, keeping them in the forefront. They are as thrilled as they could be that the masses (us) care to speculate about this relative non-event that would never happen.
I'm going to have to play devil's advocate here about floyd in the octagon. Admittedly, if one of these MMA cats were to get Floyd on the ground, presumably they would beat him quickly. If Floyd were to try and make a move to MMA in the next year or so, I would imagine that his focus in training would be in 1. managing NOT to end up on the ground, and 2. learning escape techniques for when he does end up on the ground.
But I would like to say this - I have never seen Urijah from Davis fight, but on the whole my observation of MMA dudes is that they are terrible boxers, terrible punchers, that in general they have no idea what they're doing as boxers. The idea that this Urijah has the jump on Floyd because he is a champion wrestler and has been working on his boxing is about as meaningful to me as the idea that Floyd only needs to work on his grappling a little to be great in MMA. It just doesn't work that way. Floyd is far and away the best boxer in the world, the fastest by far, and I think these MMA dudes would find the power of his punches devastating in a way that other boxers do not, because he throws straight efficient punches with great leverage of the kind that I have rarely seen connected in an MMA contest.
So the question is, could Floyd stay on his feet long enough to hurt one of these guys sufficiently to make then defenseless before they got him on the ground. The octagon is a big space, a lot of room to maneuver. In the end, I have an idea that it could be a pretty boring contest, with Floyd on the move a lot, refusing to give his man a chance to take him down, and the other dude refusing to exchange punches with Floyd. In other words, an "I won't play your sport and you won't play mine" scenario.
Yonatan - I actually spoke about this on one of my Fight Network Radio appearances. Bold move by Cintron and, yes, he was a wrestler back in the day but I sort of agree with White on this one: Does anyone really care about Cintron-Sherk?
Larz - Couldn't agree with you more. That is exactly what Floyd should do. If he can learn how to defend the takedown at least (known as "sprawl" in MMA) he could win because, yes, MMA fighters' striking techniques are 1/10 as good as their boxing counterparts. But that said, as quick as Floyd is with his punches a guy like Faber is with his takedowns so it would really be a battle of who imposes his well first.
Mos def, Franchise - a contest of wills that it's easy to imagine being a battle of attrition. At first when I heard the news, I was upset, because I thought, ah Christ, this is going to be Floyd's next move because it's definitely the biggest news he could make. Now I'm starting to agree with everyone that it won't happen, one because Floyd could easily embarrass himself, and two because even if he won there's a chance it might be boring as fuck.
So hopefully, as you say, Floyd will just shut up and fight Cotto. I wonder how that will play out though. I just don't think Cotto has the juice right now for Floyd to to get in the ring with him, and I don't think Cotto would dare fight a Margarito or Paul Williams right now and potentially blow a gigundous payday with either Floyd or Oscar. Maybe it will be Oscar then Floyd for Cotto in '08. Now presuming that Cotto could beat Oscar (I'm far from sure about that) THAT would be some shit.
I'm the anonymous from the other threads, signed up at Large's request. First I'd like to say that I actually do believe within a year to twelve months Mayweather could transform himself into an elite MMA fighter. Again, I am not an expert in MMA, but as the Franchise was talking about, if Mayweather were to learn an effective sprawl he would be at an enormous advantage. I'm sure a guy like Chuck Liddel is a really good wrestler, but he seems to manage to stay on his feet quite well. Mayweather, with his manifest physical talents and world-class discipline would, I feel, be able to learn those skills relatively quickly.
But again, I think it's not going to happen. I'd like to turn to both the Franchise's and Large's point that Mayweather should fight Cotto, and is, at least to some extent afraid to do so.
I think much more could be said on the subject than I will here, but basically, I simply don't believe that a fighter like Mayweather is "afraid" of anyone. I think there are certain matches he is more willing to take because there is less risk and more money, vs. more risk and less money, but I don't believe for one minute that he or any other elite boxer is truly "afraid." He simply has a price.
For example, Ray Leonard is known as having one of the greatest resumes of any fighter in history, taking on all comers. However, he never fought Aaron Pryor, refused Duran a trilogy in timely fashion, and waited till Hagler was past his best and mandated only 12 rounds. Was he afraid? I don't think so.
Looking at Leonard and comparing him to Mayweather and Cotto, I think the apt comparison is Hearns. Fans were begging for a Hearns-Leonard fight for years, and it only happened when it became a financial imperative. Was Leonard ever afraid? I sincerely doubt it, he just waited till the moment was right.
To be a fighter like Leonard, Ali, and Mayweather (yes I know I put his name in that group) You have to have a gigantic ego. The physical talent and skill must be there, but you also need that Michael Jordan insane competitiveness and self-belief. Floyd has that.
I also remember a Hopkins quote that I think is relevant; After the... I think Tarver fight, Hopkins claims he has retired. Merchant asks, though, if someone were to come up with an over the moon offer, say twenty million, would you fight again. Hopkins says something to the effect of, "I'll come out of the grave to fight for twenty million dollars."
And such it is with Floyd. Just have a little patience, as long as Cotto keeps winning the fight will happen. I think the only thing that can really get in the way is a Cotto loss, or Bob Arum, and Arum is the far bigger problem. Floyd hates Arum, and it's hard for me to imagine Floyd fighting under his banner even for one fight, but again, it could happen.
I would also like to remind people that up until the Mosley fight, Arum constantly said that Cotto wasn't ready for Floyd. Back when they were at 140 and the fight could easily have been made Arum and Cotto wanted know part it. Doesn't mean they were ducking, just means that's how things work out.
Again, I think what has to happen is Cotto takes two fights, (Clottey and Margarito are the names Arum brought up, and I think Cotto is a HUGE favorite against them both. I think Arum knows what Margarito really is, despite everything he says, a B-Level guy.) But most importantly HBO gets into it and every single broadcast starts talking about the fight. They need to build him up the way they did Taylor, but fortunately for them, Cotto is the real deal, so they don't even have to fabricate like they did with Taylor.
It'll happen in the fall, you'll see, have patience.
(Though, on a personal level, I must say I would prefer to see Mayweather fight Mosley first. It would be easy to make with Golden Boy, and it's a fight I've always wanted to see, and Mosley is just teetering from being past it to being shot, there's still time if it happens this year. Oh well, in boxing, as in life in general things rarely happen when and how you want them.)
Great to have you back around here Franchise.
Frankly I'd just prefer to see Mayweather build up to an eventual fight with Cotto.
I agree with all of the comments re: Floyd getting his ass whipped in MMA. It's akin to Michael Jordan trying to play baseball - different set of skills. If he put two to three years into learning BJJ and grappling - he might be formidable. He is a tremendous competitor and athlete after all. But doing this without learning at least a rudimentary skill level of grappling is suicide. You need to be proficient at many different disciplines to win in MMA. Kind of like the Superstars competition - lol. Floyd would look like the equivalent of Joe Frazier drowning in the pool during the Superstars back in the day - great boxer, horrible swimmer.
This doesn't just apply to boxers in MMA, however. Two of BJJ's most outstanding players got smoked in their MMA debuts. Marcelo Garcia - who is the Michael Jordan of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I saw him at the ADCC in Newark he's amazing - got stopped recently in his first MMA match and he fought a guy who was 3-3, hardly world-class. Granted he got stopped on cuts after dominating the first round but he obviously wasn't used to getting hit or defending knees. Same thing happened to another BJJ great - Jacare - he got KTFO'd in his MMA debut. He foolishly stood and traded punches (he totally punched like a sissy - lol) and got ganked.
MMA is a just a different sport - Floyd wouldn't do too well without at least a few years of training at the other disciplines and a slow buildup fighting bums and learning the game. Then again, he probably wouldn't do well on the PBA tour or that show on G4 - Ninja Warrior (love that show) - it's apples and oranges.
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