Being and Nothingness
Can someone out there in No Mas land please help me make some sense of this? Let me start by saying I love both of these guys. I love their styles, I love their attitudes, I think they are both throwbacks to a bygone era and both have been great for boxing in very different ways. But to have Bernard Hopkins and Winky Wright fight at this point in their careers, at 170 pounds no less, just doesn't add up for me.
I like big fights that have consequences - I like fights that are taking their combatants somewhere. I want a victory to make a
point, to say "now I am this, now you must reckon with me in a new way," and I want a loss to say the same thing. Most of all, I like a big fight to answer a question about two fighters that has long existed in my mind. Bernard vs. Winky meets absolutely none of these qualifications. Have any of us been wondering in, oh, the last three years what would happen if Bernard and Winky met up? Two defensively-minded fighters with cagey ring skills and almost no knockout power? I mean, Christ, you thought Bernard/Jermain was a chess match. These two might actually play chess in there for as much clean scoring as we'll see in of this thing.And don't get me wrong - I love the technicians. I'm not one of these guys who needs a fight to be a bloodbath to be interested. In fact, I'm the opposite of that. The point I'm trying to make is that stylistically there is no compelling reason for this fight. It will not capture anyone's imagination because nothing is at stake. Whoever wins will rise only slightly in our estimation, and whoever loses will fall not one iota. No belts are on the line and to my knowledge these guys have no personal beef. There's nothing going on here besides economics, although not exactly shrewd economics. Bernard needs to fight again and wants a bout he could conceivably win. He's run through all the available options and Winky is what he came out with. Myself, I would have hoped that, presented with a Winky or nothing situation, he would have gone the nothing route. But no way.
In conclusion, I remember when it first emerged that Ex was thinking about coming back to fight Maskaev. I was horrified. Now... I'm telling you I would actually prefer that fight to this one. At least against Maskaev, there would seem to be some purpose to it at all, no matter how preposterous. This just feels like an exhibition. An expensive one, to boot.
13 Comments:
I think you're off base here. I'm very excited for this fight. First of all, it's extremely rare to have two top five pfper's in the world squaring off. Second this will be for Hop's LHW ring belt, if you're the type for belts to float your boat. Third, if Floyd loses the winner of this fight should be the consensus top fighter in the sport. Just look at their recent fights, amazing.
You say you like technical fights but don't find the single best one that can be made exciting? I don't get it. True, a knockout isn't going to happen, but that's pretty much a guarantee for both of these fighters at this point in their career's (I love old Hop, but even I admit the young Executioner was the more explosive puncher.)
This'll be a great fight though; can Hopkins neutralize the jab? Can Winky get out of the way of Hopkins best punch, the sneaky straight right? I thought Hopkins-Tarver was terrific, and though Winky-Quartay lacked drama he looked great in that fight as well. I mean, hell, these are the two top guys north of welterweight going at it, B-Hop rides again! That doesn't excite you?
I don't care that it's at an awkward catchweight. I thought both of these guys won their fights with Jermain Taylor so this is, to me, a matchup of guys still on long unbeaten streaks, and very unpredictable as to what can happen. I'm curious about the odds.
In addition, it's also the only fight that makes sense for either guy. Calzhage is too busy taking on reality TV star's and WBO mandatories, Jones needs to beat somebody first, and Taylor doesn't want any more of either guy. Get on board, it's gonna be great.
B-hop wins 115-113 on all cards and, incredibly, retires ahead of both Hopkins and Toney based on career accomplishment.
I meant, of course, retires ahead of both Roy Jones and James Toney based on accomplishments.
Hopkins is alreaady ahead of Roy and rather obviously Lights Out in my book, to start. Bernard is in the conversation of the greatest middleweights of all time, and nothing that happens against Winky Wright at 170 pounds is going to change that one bit.
Second, I seriously doubt this fight will be for Ex's 175 belt - it can't be, because it's at the catchweight. No title at stake.
Third - if Floyd loses the consensus top fighter in the sport will be Pac Man.
Fourth - I love technicians, but 1. Any fight that has almost NO possibility of a KO is lacking - the KO is finality, the scorecards are always a disappointment - in a bullfight, after a long hard battle, somebody gets carried out, the bull or the matador - there's no referendum on who won. And 2. Styles make fights, and these two styles are tailor-made for a very uninteresting affair. It's not a fight that spurs my imagination in any way, but I'm glad it does yours, because I want people to be into the fights that get made. I will watch for sure - I'm a fan, and I'll be in there debating it eventually with everyone else - but I first had to lay it out there - I don't see what either man stands to gain from this matchup. Winky a little more than Bernard, but neither of them that much.
Hopkins is alreaady ahead of Roy and rather obviously Lights Out in my book, to start. Bernard is in the conversation of the greatest middleweights of all time, and nothing that happens against Winky Wright at 170 pounds is going to change that one bit.
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I think the win will be huge on either fighter's resume. I generally don't take away too much from a fighter for losing a competitive fight from an all time great, but get the win and you've really got something to crow about. while the weight makes it strange, I think it would probably be Winky's best win and Hopkins third best win. That's something. And I think that Hopkins, Jones, and Toney are all very close historically. Arguments are valid for each man, so each win Hopkins gets is very important.
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Second, I seriously doubt this fight will be for Ex's 175 belt - it can't be, because it's at the catchweight. No title at stake.
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I'm pretty sure you're mistaken here. DLH-Hopkins was at a catchweight of, I believe, 157 and was still for the ring belt. I don't think Hopkins ever had any LHW paper belt anyway, so that doesn't matter.
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Third - if Floyd loses the consensus top fighter in the sport will be Pac Man.
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You're right, it won't be consensus, but a strong argument can be made. This win will far outweigh Pac's next fight against... That guy I never even heard of. Hope he'll fight Barrera-Marquez winner, but Pacs my boy so I won't argue.
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Fourth - I love technicians, but 1. Any fight that has almost NO possibility of a KO is lacking - the KO is finality, the scorecards are always a disappointment - in a bullfight, after a long hard battle, somebody gets carried out, the bull or the matador - there's no referendum on who won. And 2. Styles make fights, and these two styles are tailor-made for a very uninteresting affair. It's not a fight that spurs my imagination in any way, but I'm glad it does yours, because I want people to be into the fights that get made. I will watch for sure - I'm a fan, and I'll be in there debating it eventually with everyone else - but I first had to lay it out there - I don't see what either man stands to gain from this matchup. Winky a little more than Bernard, but neither of them that much.
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I disagree on your KO point. You're basically saying every fight Winky is in will be lacking. Or Sweet Pea. You knew against the elites they weren't going to get KO'd or get the KO.
Also, to me it's not inconcievable Bernard gets the KO. Unlikely, but not impossible. Plus, Winky has gotten more aggresive. I doubt there'll be as much posing as you imagine. In thinking about it, I'm wondering if Hopkins will be able to keep up with Winky's workrate. But then, Hopkins has his ways of slowing you down. Also, these are two of the three best defensive fighters in the world (along with Floyd, now that Toney has slowed so severely) I can't wait to see which style is more affective, Winky's forearm shield, or B-Hop's movement and chin tuck. Wow, I just realized I'm more hyped for this than Floyd-DlH!
Looks like I won't be able to convince you that the fight itself will be exciting, but all I can say is that in terms resume this is THE best fight either could make. It's not an every year thing getting two guys this high PfP, with this level of accomplishment in the ring together. Would it have been better at 160? Maybe, but I don't think the weight will be a huge factor. Would it be nice if it was part of a larger battle for divisional supremacy? Yes, but really, at this point that's not what Hopkins is about. He's reached a status beyond weight classes, and both fighters should be commended for making it happen.
I agree with you that Bernard has achieved a status that is beyond weight classes, and that's a valid point.
The fact that Winky rarely gets the KO is I think a big strike against him. Bernard certainly moved into that category as he got older, but then he finished the job in his two biggest fights, so he is never going to face that charge too often. But hey, I'm still a big Winky fan, and lately he's been opening up a lot more (obviously he wants a few big paydays before he lays down the gloves.) But I still maintain that every fight in some ways boils down to The Matador and The Bull, and here you have two very defensive-minded matadors twirling capes at each other.
Winky's best win was Shane, I think, and I don't think beating a 42 year old man is going to change that no matter who it is. Both guys are past their primes - a victory for either isn't going to matter much to how we look at them. I ardently believe this.
Winky's best fight would have been a Cotto or a Margarito at 154, someone on the way up, womeone still relevant. Bernard's best fight would have been with his remote control. I sincerely believe the man should stay home.
But like I said, Anon, I'm going to get into it. I'm always pulling hard for Ex - he's straight up Philly, about the best thing we've had going for twenty years. And here's a level at which I am prepared to admit that this is a very interesting fight. I have no idea what the odds will be. What do you think? I flipflop every time I think about it.
Large, I couldn't agree more with your assertion that a truly great fight must declare or settle some lingering question. The only question in this fight is who has aged at the better rate.
I'd be a a lot more confident (and entertained) if they fought at 160.
It would definitely change the feel of the thing if it were at an actual weight, and 160 would be ideal (word is, Bernard just can't make that weight anymore - after all those years, he let the cat out of the bag once, and now the shit is OUT).
I think Hopkins will be the slight favorite. Something like Hopkins +110 winky -95.
I think it should be a dead pick'm, but Winky never seems to get the credit he deserves. I know Hopkins is old, but I don't think anyone thinks he's washed up. I think the move up in weight helped, I'm just always worried he'll get outworked as some thought he was in the JT fights, and Winky certainly has that capability.
Why are people excited about the Floyd-DLH fight and not this one. That one isn't really part of any larger picture, DLH is at the same point Hopkins is, outside divisional rankings, a free agent if you will. That's going to be an extremely technical fight. Also that fight has just about the same chance of a KO as this one. (What great fighter has Oscar KO'd? Vargas 5 years ago? That joke Mayorga? Ancient Chavez? Gimme a break. A knockouts not impossible, but it's bordering it. You really think the best defensive fighter in his generation is gonna be knocked out in his prime? And as for Floyd KO'ing DLH, not fucking likely)
To me, the same dynamics are at play in each fight, with Hopkins playing DLH and Floyd playing Winky. I think they are equally intriguing, and in fact I can almost guarantee you the odds will be closer in this fight. The same issues you raise about Hopkins age can be raised about the semi-retired Oscar. If anything Oscar's physical decline is much more readily apparent than B-Hops. And Winky looks just as good as ever. Winky is the real deal, give the man his respect, he earned it the hard way.
And as for the weight, I just don't believe it will be a factor. If Hopkins wanted to he could get down to 165 I bet, they're just doing it at 170 so it's for the ring belt.
Look, I'm not saying it's going to be Morales-Barrera exciting, but for me any time you manage to get two fighters in the top five pfp in one ring together it's a noteworthy event. I guarantee by the time the bell rings you'll be excited. Please explain to me why people think the weight will be a big factor. Hopkins is probably naturally 1 division bigger. Size wise this fight is closer than Hop-DLh and HOP-Tito, as I think Winky is naturally bigger than both.
Finally, Large, I don't mean to be contrarian, but there is no chance Winky gets near the credit for beating Margarito, a guy who's top wins are Cintron and... Umm, I guess a one handed Clottey. And Cotto? You have to be kidding me. He just moved up from Jr. Welter and you think he's ready for Winky, the guy who should be middleweight champ? I mean, do you think Cotto could beat even an average middleweight contender? somebody like Arthur Abraham?
Winky's never going back down to Jr. Middle, even if he could make the weight. His only other big fight choices were JT and Calzahge,neither of which were gonna happen. No, this is the right fight methinks. And I bet it'll do surprising well PPV, at least matching the Hop-Tarver fight.
Well we can just go round and round Anon, but I admire your dedication. You're definitely a serious fan.
Floyd/Oscar is huge because it's the numer one PFP guy who is undefeated and largely untouched against the biggest name in the sport. And I think there's a very good chance of a knockout in this fight. Oscar's left hook can put anyone on his ass anytime, and he's quick enough to land it on Floyd. As for Floyd - I think we saw in the Gatti fight that when he decides to go for it, he can inflict serious damage. He won't one-punch anyone down, but I wouldn't be surprised to see DLH TKO'ed. When Floyd swarms, the shit adds up quick.
A victory over Margarito or Cotto I feel like would give Winky much more respect than a victory over Bernard. Those guys are on their way up in the game and have all the respect of the insiders - people are afraid of those guys, and they're dangerous. Winky beats one of them, it gives me the feeling that he's still very much in the game, in the hunt. A win on points over Ex right now feels like... like a Rolling Stones concert, an old-folks show, lots of money trying to recapture something that's pretty much over. Of course I think Bernard still has something left, but you're never going to get around the fact that he's 42 fucking years old. And yes, it would be strange for Winky to go back to 154, but I think he could do it any day of the week. He's not a naturally big guy.
But whatever - this is the best payday he could get, and so he's taking it. It's more of a strange choice for Bernard in my book than Winky. And no doubt, Anon - I will fork over my dough and be very into it and hope for an exciting fight. I doubt it will do Hopkins/Tarver numbers. I actually think it will be a weak night PPV-wise. Winky is NOT a draw at all right now, so much so that Winky/Jermain, a great fucking fight, wasn't even PPV-worthy in the eyes of HBO.
Finally, if I can make a tennis analogy, here's what this feels like to me. It's like if Sampras suddenly decided to make a one-match PPV return to the sport and it was against... Lleyton Hewitt. I mean, hey, Hewitt's a great player, one of the best and most underrated of his era. It would probably be a hell of a match. But wouldn't you sort of feel like, hey Pete, if you're not going to play Federer, or even Nadal, then why waste our time?
I hope I'm not coming off as antagonistic, I'm just finding this interesting as we seem to disagree quite consistently. So, at the risk of being annoying and going too far afield I'll offer some more thoughts.
1. I love the Floyd-DLH fight, it's the one I'm most looking forward to, but if you think theres more than a 10 percent shot of a KO I'll think you'll be dissapointed. DLH has proven he's got a GREAT chin. That X put him down with a liver shot is just proof of X's greatness and Hoya being too small.
As for Hoya's vaunted left hook. Yes, it's great, but it's no Julian Jackson, or hell even Tito. lets look at the best fighters Hoya's fought. X, Shane, Tito, and old Whitaker. All were hit and none was ever in any danger of the KO. The most comparable to Floyd was Whitaker, who wasn't only unhurt, but barely took a clean blow. And that was when Hoya was young, not a guy who has fought once in three years. X is far less retired that Hoya is. Again, I love the fight, but it has the same chance of a KO as X-Winky. Hell, I think X has a better chance for the KO than Oscar.
2. You said, "Winky beats one of them, it gives me the feeling that he's still very much in the game, in the hunt." What gave you the feeling he ever wasn't? Let me ask you this, have either Margarito or Cotto ever had a win as good as Winky's last fight against Quartay? A warm up fight. Winky doesn't need to prove his relevance, those guys do. Winky's recent record is incredible, and though he's been hit a lot recently he's been in there with great fighters. One of my pet peeve's is the way boxing fans fall in love with guys who've yet to prove things at the expense of great old pros. Winky has a legacy that in many ways is more impressive than either Mosley or Hoya, and just because he's not a puncher people shouldn't forget that.
3. As to your Tennis analogy. Who is Federer if X is Sampras? Why isn't Winky a comparable Federer. Over the last few years he has taken all the drama out of who would would win the contest. We always knew Winky would win after the first few rounds of the fight, just like you knew Fed would win after the first set.And it's not like X was really retired. He's far more active than Hoya. Why does he need to retire?
So, my questions would be.
Who's Federer if not Winky?
Why Winky needs to prove himself against prospects?
Do you not, like me, rate Winky at or above the likes of Shane, Hoya, and Tito?
One more comment. I really do doubt Winky could make 154 anymore. He's a big guy. He was bigger than Tito, bigger than Mosley, and didn't seem at a physical disadvantage to JT, who is HUGE. Winky's a big boy.
Maybe it would help me understand your perception of Winky if you'd tell me your scoring for Winky-Jermain? I had it an impressive 8 rounds to 4 victory for Winky.
I definitely had Winky beating Jermain, not 8-4. Actually on strict round calculating I thought a draw was a respectable result. On the whole, I thought Winky inflicted much more damage and it was a shame for him to come away without the belts. On the other hand, you got to take those belts, and it was his choice to play it safe in the 12th, a bad decision always.
I am a big Winky fan, but I think part of our problem here is that you rate Winky higher than I do, and I rate Ex higher than you do. I do not rank Winky with Shane or Oscar. Winky's best wins are a past-his-prime Shane, impressive but not mind-blowing, and a completely shot Tito. Compare that to Oscar's resume - there's just no comparison. With Shane it's closer, but I would still rank Shane above Winky. Shane was hands down PFP champ after he beat Oscar, an honor Winky has never owned.
Meanwhile, Ex I rank among the all-time greats, a top five middleweight who has been the PFP champ, owned the 160 crown for longer than Monzon, and then punctuated his career by going up to 175 to beat the consensus light heavy champ. I thought that was beautiful way to go out. This is a guy, in my eyes, who has done it all, and to say that James Toney's career is even in his ballpark is preposterous to me. That said, for a comeback to feel right with Ex it would have to be something spectacular, unique, not just beating a caliber of fighter that he has proven many times before that he can beat.
I think the Winky as Hewitt analogy works well. Winky is Hewitt - a great career, a few major wins, largely underrated and yet also at no point in his career the king of the sport. Floyd is Federer right now. Oscar is like Agassi. In that Bernard has already beaten Oscar, about the only fight that really would have excited me for him would be Floyd, and that couldn't happen for all sorts of reasons.
So what's left? That's why I said I would prefer the Maskaev debacle to the bout with Winky. At least that's something unique, something he hasn't done. Or Roy - they were talking about Roy and Bernard for a while. An exhibition, for sure, but at least there's all that history there, all that bad blood between the two. Winky feels like just another fight, a good one admittedly, and you've made a lot of good points to that effect, but still just one more fight, the outcome of which will have absolutely no bearing on the legacy of Bernard.
You're definitely not being antagonistic, by the way. This is a good conversation. This right here feels like a Bernard/Winky preview. A potential stalemate.
OK, I think we've come to a bit of an understanding. I think I do rate Winky a bit higher than you. I think that while the Hoya, Mosley, Tito crew might be historically better thus far, none of them would ever beat him head to head. I rate him high.
I think the larger point is this, though. You think of Hopkins as retired, I never did. He's a thorny old man, and a cheap one at that, I never really thought he was retired, and I think if he performs as I expect, he won't retire after this fight either. I can see your dissapointment as this doesn't have the meaning or long expectation a rematch with a viable jones would have, it's not an exclamation point.
which I agree with, but again, seeing as I view him as an active fighter doesn't bother me. furthermore, I think if he wins this cements him in the running for the GREATEST AGED FIGHTER of ALL TIME. Or the GAFTAT for short, a noble goal to be sure.
So I guess that's it, you see his legacy as fixed, whereas I see him in the enviable position of having nowhere to go but up. Same with Winky, this fight is only a plus for him.
Anyway, cheers, but before I go I couldn't let you have the last word about Toney. I give big points for moving up for a fighter, and I give big points for having great wins. Toney's record is up and down, but he does have a higher number of IMPRESSIVE wins than Hopkins does. I don't usually take points off a guy for close losses, so I think their legacies are closer than you might think. That's really the fight I wanted to see.
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