Ridonkulous
Oh my people, what a night. Let me just put my apologies up top here for being MIA for a while and then get right to the good stuff. I have indeed been mired in some television-type business as I-berg pointed out, not to mention that I recently moved Mrs. Large and Reggie Large to a new house. Things have been non-stop. But I will tell you this – I’m going to be doing some fight-week reporting from San Jose next week for HBO leading up to next Saturday’s BAD card headlined by what promises to be a meanass smackdown, James Kirkland vs. Joel Julio. I will certainly bring some of that insider love here to the Mas.
Now to revisit what we just witnessed. To start off, let’s understate the case a bit and say that Marquez/Diaz is the hands down FOY right now and no matter what happens in the rest of ’09, it will at least be garnering some honorable mentions in that category come December. Because this was a memorable scrap.
Though I didn’t weigh in here with a prognostification, I’m on record going way back to when this fight was announced as saying that I thought Marquez was going to take the Baby Bull to school. And though Diaz gave an admirable account of himself tonight, I can’t say I ever really wavered from that prediction at any point in the fight. There was that one left hook that Diaz landed in the second, I think, that staggered Marquez a bit, a shot that in the moment gave me pause, but when I saw the replay it didn’t seem to me that JMM was hurt so much as stunned and a little tied up with his feet.
It was impressive how much Diaz went for right from the opening bell. The kid was all the way down damn-the-torpedoes lane. There was a marked physical disparity in there too that I wasn’t expecting to see. Diaz looked considerably bigger, and with his relentless forward momentum, it felt a little like what in my memory Oscar/Floyd looked like in the first couple of rounds – a bigger man bum-rushing the shit out of a smaller man to the extent that the smaller guy, despite being the more skilled and savvy fighter, couldn’t help but seem concerned.By the third round, however, Marquez had steadied the ship and started to turn the tide his way. I gave him the third and the fourth, and at that point the fight started to remind more of Mayweather/Hatton. You had the crowd favorite and the balls-out pressure fighter still seeming like he’s getting the better of the action because he’s always pushing forward, getting the big roars whenever he lets his hands go, when in fact most of his lunging shots are getting blocked or missing and he’s eating a lot of clean counters right on the button in return.
I had Diaz rallying to win the fifth with pure moxie, but it looked to me like he shot his wad in that round. His onslaught slowed in the sixth, and with a fighter like Diaz, when the onslaught slows, there’s not a hell of a lot to take its place. Diaz is pretty much an onslaught or nothing kind of guy.
On my card, Marquez won the sixth and the seventh pretty convincingly. Not until the seventh did I start to wonder if Diaz potentially might get stopped. All of the starch was gone from his shots, and Marquez had really started to find the button with that uppercut that eventually told the tale. The sweat was flying off Diaz’s head in buckets from that punch landing over and over again.
Was it the seventh or the eighth that Diaz got his cut? I think it was the eighth, but I can’t quite remember. Anyway, as we saw in the Nate fight, this Baby Bull most decidedly does not like the color red, particularly when it’s gushing out of his own eyes. I don’t know that I’ve seen a fighter ever lose two notable fights like this and have bad reactions to cuts play such central roles in the outcomes. It’s a big part of the game, how you react to bad cuts, because they happen in there even when you’re winning. And Diaz – the man gets seriously taken off his game when he starts bleeding.
But look – he was going to lose anyway. I wrote somewhere about this fight, it may have been in a comment here, that I would give Diaz a legit chance in this one if he had any pop. But for all his lunging, Smokin’ Joe-esque relentlessness, he’s just never been the guy that throws the equalizer kind of punch. He got off with some very big left hooks last night, definitely punches that got JMM’s attention, and given his size advantage, you have to imagine that if he was a legit banger, he might have been able to get Marquez several blocks down queer street in the tidal wave of those first two rounds.Then again, Marquez is just so fucking good. He really did remind me a lot of Floyd last night (and the poor guy, so deluded – did you see after the fight where JMM was calling out Floyd? dah… don’t wait by the phone on that one, Juan), staying cool against bigger guys who are determined to rough him up, making the necessary adjustments to neutralize his man’s advantages while finding the exact right angles and punches to inflict damage, and then counter-punching with such ease and speed and pinpoint accuracy. Without Floyd on the scene, JMM is the best counter-puncher in boxing hands down. Add to that picture the fact that, unlike Floyd, JMM is willing to get all el mas macho when some uppity young half-Mexicano tries to steal his chorizo, and you have yourself one of… well, you have yourself one of the two most exciting fighters in the game right now.
As for the other most exciting fighter in the game, he, ah, he’s making a lot more money than JMM these days. After the Oscar/Pacquiao presser, while I was writing my piece in the MGM Grand press room, a bunch of adoring Filipino writers pretty much had Freddie Roach cornered directly to my left and were peppering him with one question after another, which Freddie seemed happy to answer in the post-fight glow of that night’s massive achievement. The whole thing had the feeling of being an off-the-record lovefest, and when the conversation turned to a third Marquez fight for Manny, Freddie was categorical.
“It’ll never happen,” he said.
You can see his point. Pacquiao/Marquez II did around 300,000 PPV buys, not dreadful by any means, but not exactly the wide world of sports either (though it should be said that at that point it was Pacquiao’s biggest PPV showing). After his shocking ruination of Oscar, Pacquiao has taken over the Golden mantle as the biggest star in the sport, and is now hunting all the big-money dogs as his rightful prey – Hatton, Floyd, Cotto, Mosley. Honestly, until he’s fought all four of those guys, I can’t see Pacquiao taking another fight with Marquez no many how spectacular knockouts Marquez strings together. And the reason for that is perfectly clear, with tonight just another piece of evidence for the dossier. Hell, you get Freddie Roach to yourself on some quiet night where he doesn’t feel like bullshitting and he might tell you himself straight up: The reason that Manny Pacquiao won’t be fighting Juan Manuel Marquez anytime soon is that Marquez is fucking great. He’s almost beaten Manny twice and the third time might just be the charm. Why on earth would Pacquiao take that chance when there just might be freakynaughty Floyd money floating around out there for him?It’s a situation that, sadly, leaves JMM to fight all comers in the mistaken belief that eventually Pacquiao will have to fight him. It leaves JMM to entertain the deluded idea that he’s anywhere near the Money Mayweather sweepstakes (did you catch Kellerman’s barely concealed disbelief in his response? “So what makes you think that Floyd Mayweather wants to fight you?). And worst of all, he’s left, as far as I can see, without a viable dance partner. Who the hell is he going to fight now? There’s not a single compelling fight left for him out there at the moment in his weight penumbra.
And that, my friends, is a damn shame, because the man is a complete joy to behold in the ring.
(P.S. – To those of you who are thinking maybe he should avenge his loss to Chris John, let me just say that I don’t have the energy to break down the John/Juarez fight at the moment other than to point out that, as far as my scorecard anyway, John got robbed. I had him winning eight rounds to three, and I called the 12th a draw. Hell of a fight, though. Hell of a night on the whole, great doubleheader.)
March 1st, 2009 at 12:53 am
great work large…maybe you could tell us about your tv work? but you dont have to…
as i said before…i could tell that juan couldnt snap the smaller guys neck with his shots(was i wrong…cuz im pretty drunk…maybe i was seeing what i wanted to)
JMM moves up to 135 and knocks out the two best…lolol…fuckin love this guy
March 1st, 2009 at 5:18 am
Big props to JMM, I really underestimated his power. Gotta say also, I probably have to take a step away from the coming up in weight stuff.. specially in the lower divisions. JMM looked smaller, as you said Large, but not THAT small as I expected him. And he definitily took his power with him.
Calling out Floyd looked more like a side-punch to Pac for me, you know, his second sentence was: “because Pacquiao won’t fight me”.
Going to a P4P-debate: I’m calling for JMM as Nr.1. You could make a case for JMM winning both fights against Pac-Man, and I was much more impressed with his last two wins than with Pacman annihilating the weight-drained golden ghost. If Pacman beats Hatton and shows he can win against a really bigger man at a higher weight class, allright.. but right now, man, JMM is on top.
March 1st, 2009 at 8:03 am
Tremendous fight for the fans to watch. I was cheering for the Baby Bull–for the future of the sport–but after the first 3 rounds, Manny Steward’s consistent commentary on JMM’s counters and clean shots finally got through to me, and the numbers backed it up. I didn’t think his shot’s were hurting Diaz much, but the cut changed everything.
The look on Diaz’s face when he knew he had been cut was frightening. It looked like he was replaced with a different guy–a scared kid who was looking for someone to tell him what to do. You really knew it was over when you saw the thousand-yard stare in the corner.
If Diaz would have listened to his trainer and actually used his jab to keep scoring points and force JMM to come at him, he may have actually avoided the clean counters that did the damage. That’s obviously not who Diaz is as a fighter, but he needs to be able to make adjustments the way JMM did.
I hope Diaz can come back, but based on the way cuts have affected his psyche in 2 fights, I don’t know that he has much of a future. I hope Marquez can get the opponents he now deserves to keep entertaining us and to build a legacy.
March 1st, 2009 at 8:15 am
I missed it. A friends suppose to bring a copy of the fight by this afternoon. I was thinking about avoiding the internet til a got a chance to watch it but I had to see who won. The story I read a few hours ago said at the time of the KO the judges were split. One had it JMM 77-75, one had it Diaz 77-75 and one even. Sounds like Large had it close with JMM slightly ahead also. Anybody out there have Diaz ahead at the time of the KO? Anyways I can’t wait to see it. Good story. There are a million good potential match-up’s out there but Pacquiao and Mayweather are both, as Large notes, now only looking for Superfights. I mean if Pacquiao was unhappy with $13 million to fight Hatton….Marquez can forget it. I guess the winner of Khan-Barrera would make the most sense but I can see why JMM is trying to lure bigger fish.
March 1st, 2009 at 8:44 am
I found it hilarious that JMM called out Floyd. It was his admission that, “yeah, I know I’m chasing windmills, so I’m gonna chase the biggest damn one in the sport.”
I had the fight four rounds to four, but throughout I had the nagging suspicion that Manny Steward (and subsequently, Large) were correct. I need to watch it again.
And as for Diaz….I feel for the kid. I don’t necessarily think that he crumbled when cut, the way he did against Nate; I think this was more a case of being eaten up by a superior fighter. However, this is going to lead to questions about the man’s testicular fortitude.
Did you know Diaz goes to college? Lamps really should have mentioned that.
March 1st, 2009 at 9:03 am
Here’s Diaz on college and politics from our Everlast interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYpAp-2g35Y
For some reason metcafe will embed in our comments but youtube vids will not. Anyone know the scoop on that? Being able to embed vids when we’re talking about certain stuff would so clutch but can’t figure out why some work and some don’t.
March 1st, 2009 at 9:39 am
I had Diaz ahead 4-3 with one round even, but scoring on a internet stream is not really good for a counter-puncher *G*. That said, the fight was close going into the ninth although you could see the change coming after 7. Still, Diaz was actually fighting pretty good for the first half of the ninth… similar to Margo before he got caught. Seems like both veterans, Mosley and JMM, let the others blow them out a bit in the round, before they turned up the pace.
March 1st, 2009 at 12:44 pm
I don’t know how reliable this article is, but Roach is quoted as saying Pac-Marquez III is definitely a possibility
http://businessmirror.com.ph/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6714:mayweathers-20-m-demand-makes-fight-vs-pacman-unlikely&catid=31:sports&Itemid=65
March 1st, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Kent – thanks for pulling that article. I like Freddie’s language – “if it’s at 140 and if we get our quote.” It makes me think two things – one, that he’s starting to definitely sense that Money May Not be an option (and he’s thinking twice about going up against welterweight monsters like Mosley and Cotto), and two, that he feels confident, given Pac’s performance at 47, that Pac can handle Marquez at 40.
I wonder if he feels that, because Pac’s star has risen so high, that he can carry better numbers in a third Marquez fight. Myself, though I certainly have my doubts as to whether JMM can be effective at 40, after last night I’m also inclined to think that the dude is a tough out no matter what. Him against Pacquiao would be a great fight at any weight. Actually, I’m not so sold on Pac being effective at over 35 either. We’ve only seen him against Oscar, and I honestly think Oscar was a shell of himself that night.
March 1st, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Oscar was done.. dude had to sit at the weight in while they were waiting for ESPN.
We will see how Manny handles 140 when he fights Hatton. Normally PAcman should kill Hatton, if he doesn’t we have our answer.
March 1st, 2009 at 4:30 pm
I threw my scorecard out there last night, but figured it wouldn’t hurt to take another look today. I watched both fights last night, and Lampley put it in my head real hard that the judges would be shading to the home team. After this was pretty much confirmed when John got robbed I decided Diaz won a few of the closer rounds because he kept JMM moving backwards. You heard Lamps and Manny come around to Kellerman’s side when it was obvious to everyone that Diaz (who didn’t have KO power to start) began to throw punches that hardly even affected JMM. I heard Max saying all along that Diaz looked like he was winning, but wasn’t landing the clean shots, and JMM was gettin at the Baby Bull’s body. Who knows what JMM had planned, but weakening the body until he could open up the face seems to be the blueprint for beating Diaz.
Anyway if you want to take a look at what I saw:
Diaz/Marquez
1 10/9
2 10/9
3 9/10
4 10/9
5 10/9
6 9/10
7 9/10
8 9/10
9 x/x
Just as an additional piece – I think Kellerman is really smart, and I think he keepshis bias to himself while calling only what he sees during the fight (not “believing the hype” as they say). After the fight I thought he was a completely arrogant windbag. Like was stated before “What makes you think Mayweather would fight you?” That’s some bullshit. He can’t come with something stringer, or help Marquez get to the point (the point being JMM is calling out Floyd because he wants to take a dig at Pac Man who can’t possibly fight him at this risk/reward juncture)? Max had to see that JMM wants Pac Man, but knows Pac is worried about fighting a dude that can very possibly beat him, but does not bring the money. Why doesn’t Max pump the drama for that instead of jerkin’ JMM off?
Max also pretty much jerked Diaz off with his line of questions. I mentioned this last night as well, but I really didn’t like him blowing his own head up in the ring after two dudes gave us a great fight.
March 1st, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Hell of a scrap last night. What can you say, right now it seems like there is Pacman, JMM, and the rest of the boxing world. Whatever happens over the next few years with either fighter, it’ll only seem like practice for the finale that everyone wants to see. My only concern with Marquez is that he ate a shit ton of shots early in the fight. Was it because he knew he could take it or because his age is catching up with him? Guess it doesn’t matter if you can still knock out the best at your weight.
As for Diaz, he’ll learn and move on. He’s reached the big stage earlier than most fighters so he’s got years to improve. Once he learns how to cover up and bide his time, he’ll be an elite fighter.
I thought Max’s interview with Diaz was great. I watched B-Hop in the background when Kellerman told Diaz that he didn’t clinch in the final seconds. Old Popkins kept nodding his head as to say, “jackass, what were you thinking.” I swear, if Bernard doesn’t become a trainer after retirement his head will explode.
March 1st, 2009 at 9:37 pm
what did yall think of chris john? ever since he beat marquez i’ve been wanting to get a look at this guy. rocky juarez is one hell of a tough fighter and he looked great in there against him until the 11th and 12th. i thought the decision was complete garbage though, like large said. you had to give john 6 rounds… 2 were clearly rocky’s rounds and that leaves 4 rounds that were a bit iffy, but i had john up 116-112 on my card (mine was just like lederman’s card except i think we transposed a couple of rounds… i think the 3rd and 7th but i’m not positive) but all 4 of those tossups went to rocky on every judge’s scorecard. there’s been some real shitty decisions here lately… what else is new, though? atleast he didn’t lose his belt.
March 1st, 2009 at 11:31 pm
i think people are looking too much into the paq-dlh fight.
just because oscar was easy at the weight doesnt mean he can go batle the entire class with ease
he’s better off just concentrating on hatton.
he’s most likely going to win.
but theyre still going have to fight to see who will win.
March 2nd, 2009 at 8:18 am
Incredible fight, and a great card as a whole. You can’t ask for much more from guys like Juarez and Diaz. Balls to the wall.
March 2nd, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Very good card. I’m a Houstonian and a fan of Juarez/Diaz–but it was obvious that Rocky got the best outcome he could have hoped for. I think John won the fight 115-113, but 114-114 wasn’t outrageous by any stretch.
And Diaz is too tough for his own good sometimes…if you’re not going to be a big puncher, he needs to mix in his jab a little more (he’s actually got a decent jab).
I’m wondering if it isn’t time for both guys to get a new voice in their corner. Nothing against Ronnie Shields, but it just doesn’t seem like either guy has progressed very much under him. Rocky still gives away too many rounds by not letting his hands go and Diaz still hasn’t figured out a way to get more power on his punches or utilize his jab more.
March 3rd, 2009 at 5:32 am
Guys I know it’s way too early to be hyping this fight but I read a story about a Paquiao-Hatton press conference in England that made me laugh. It seems that Floyd Mayweather Sr. and Freddie Roach are having a hard time hiding their hatred for one another. Apparantly Floyd Sr. grabbed a mic and said “if anybody thinks Freddie “the joke” Roach can out-train me, they have to be sick”..then he turned to Pacquiao and started to rhyme a prediction..”when he beat the world legend Oscar de la Hoya he was over the hill, now it’s time for you to swallow the same old pill. When it comes Manny, then you had better be ready, because I don’t want you to blame it on Freddie.”
Roach was a bit more economical with his words. He simply said “It’s a shame Floyd Sr. isn’t in the Hall of Fame”.
March 3rd, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Great night of fighting, and the main event was tasty enough to wash the taste of Houston-fried bullshit from my mouth.
(I’m tempted to call bullshit on the draw that the judges had on their cards before the 9th round in JMM-Diaz, but it’s actually more reflective of what a great fight this was. First half: Diaz, though with not much real damage, and constant hints that JMM was figuring the baby bull out. Second half: Enter the matador. O-fuckin’-le.)
Back to the bullshit though, when will we next (if ever; this was the first time) see John fight out of Indonesia? Because I know if I nearly lost to a sad sack bad luck hack like Rocky Juarez over Made in America scoring like that, I wouldn’t be racking up frequent flier miles soon. And MaxBoxing dares to say Juarez could have won, and they should rematch in Houston?
March 6th, 2009 at 8:31 am
I know all you guys are probably growing tired of me complaining about all the bad times for Kronk and Detroit, but it got a bit worse on Tuesday when Kronk’s first star, at least local star, Mickey Goodwin died. For those of you who have never heard of Mickey, he was Manny’s “guy” before Tommy Hearns. Mickey was tough Irish kid with a wicked left hook that partied as hard as he fought. He drove around an old rusty pick-up truck, drank Budweiser by the gallon and called his crew the “Hillbilly Mafia”. Mickey fell out of favor with Manny when he skip a St.Patrick’s Day fight in 1978 to got to Ft.Lauderdale on spring break. He was funny as hell. He started a gym just south of Detroit called The River Rouge Boxing Club. He helped kids during the week and tended bar on weekends. When he was found dead Tuesday night, police at first though he was attacked out side his house and brought back to his house. He had scraped all over his elbows and knees and head. Turns out Mickey stroked out, fell down his stairs, got up, took a shower, put some jeans on laided down and died. Mickey was tough son-of-a-bitch right to the end.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Hey Brad – I was a huge fan of the Kronk gym in the late ’70′s, early ’80′s. I was a fan of the whole stable back then – I loved the yellow and gold trunks and the low left hand/up jab style. I remember Mickey Goodwin – he was a tough little guy. Any idea whatever happened to:
Hilmer Kenty
Duane Thomas
Jimmy Paul
Danny Paul
Lanny “Blue” Edmonds
Roderick Moore
Hurley Snead
Rodney and Benny Ray Trusel
Darrell Chambers
Stanley Longsteet
Tony Anthony
I know that a few of the other guys from that era died young – Bernard Mays, DuJuan Johnson, Stevie McCrory.
Manny Steward had one of the most amazing rosters of fighters ever back in the day. Too bad he stopped focusing on developing fighters from the amateurs through the pros. He turned into a hired gun sometime in the ’90′s and hasn’t really developed anybody of real note from a youngster to the big time since Oba Carr.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
If you do google search for “Kronk fighters where are they now” you’ll get a Detroit News story telling where all those guys are….but it was written in 2001. Truth is I’m not sure where most of those guys are anymore. In November of 2007 Kronk had a fight with Banks and Andy Lee and I saw Kenty and Goodwin ringside but I didn’t recognise too many others. I hear what youre saying about Manny but I can’t hack on him. He’s done alot for Detroit and still does. But man those old days with all those talented guys all going to war against each other…
March 19th, 2009 at 12:32 am
what a fight. good stuff.