Dollars and Sense
We’ve had this recent debate raging on the message boards here on my last post about the Judah/Clottey fight, a debate prompted by our man Ricky Roe’s suggestion that Tito Trinidad would be a good opponent for Tony Margarito’s fall fight. I thought I’d address this debate directly because to my mind it’s about much more than who Margarito will or will not fight this November. It’s about what we as boxing fans want from our sport.
First, to recap the argument. Ricky Roe’s point, as I read it, is that Margarito earned a big payday with his win over Cotto and that because the two men who are in the most reasonable position to give it to him – Oscar and Floyd – don’t seem like they’re going to take the bait, maybe Bob Arum should think outside the box a little rather than just positioning Tony for another tough welterweight fight that will not bring in much loot – i.e., Josh Clottey. Ricky’s suggestion was Tito – offer him a lot of cash to get down to 162 and wham, you’ve got yourself another Mexico/Puerto Rico showdown with an instant PPV-worthy storyline – the old Puerto Rican icon trying to redeem the honor of the young one.
Among others, Trickster, Butch Huskey (glad to see that we’ve got Butch here at No Mas – I knew he’d come around eventually) and our crack prognosticator Ryan (who, I imagine, has been writing his messages with a big fat Cohiba in his mouth on the pristine beach of the island he just bought with all his Margarito winnings) took the position on the admittedly unlikely Margo/Tito pairing with the response of – look, that would be just another bullshit sideshow fight to take our money and otherwise tell us absolutely nothing about either man, so why even bother bringing it up? As boxing fans, we should be happy about Margs/Clottey II because it’s going to be a great fight, and we should welcome the winner fighting Paul Williams.
I’m sure these guys will straighten me out if I’ve misspoken their positions, but I think that’s pretty much the meat of the matter right there, and it’s an argument that to me gets to the essence of the peculiarity of being a boxing fan in this country, where the sport is marginalized and the best fighters are often not the biggest stars and don’t make the most money. To become a legit headlining PPV attraction these days in the States is an unpredictable science, a much more delicate one than the sweet science itself.
As dedicated fight fans, we watch a bout like Margarito/Cotto and we see a transcendent sporting event that hearkens to classical mythology and we feel that surely the victor is deserving of some spoils to match all spoils. But then we come down off our highs and confront the fact of the matter – career-wise, Tony Margarito is only marginally better off after beating Cotto than he was before it and that the best he can do for an encore is a so-so fight moneywise against someone he’s already beaten. In other words, a contest in which he has next to nothing to win and everything to lose. This is what his epic performance two weeks ago seems to have bought for him.
Along that line of thinking, I’m very sympathetic to Ricky’s position. I think Margs deserves a more rewarding fall fight than another very tough outing against a dangerous customer like Clottey that has very little upside for him. Tito… look, the Tito thing is only symbolic really, because the main thing I think is wrong with the idea is that I’m pretty sure that if Tito was willing to get down to somewhere around 160 he’d already have a fight for the fall and it would be against Oscar. From what I understand, Oscar’s people really went after that fight, but Tito’s people, I think, put 165 as the absolute upper weight limit and Oscar passed on that. Now you think Arum and Margarito are going to outbid Golden Boy to a point where Tito’s going to say, “okay, sure, 162, no problem”? Simply put, I have no doubts that if Tito could be gotten back into the middleweight zone, Oscar and his mucho dinero would have done it already. I have to believe that Tito would rather fight Oscar than Margarito anyway. I know I would. They’re virtually the same size, only one of them is much, much… scarier.
But I don’t think Ricky was actually suggesting that Margs/Tito was going to happen. I feel like he was more exploring out there “who else can we get for Tony other than Clottey or Williams or god forbid Judah who would up his Q factor a little and make him some cheddar” and Tito at a catchweight was an interesting idea. And I agree with that. If by some bizarre chain of circumstances it actually happened, I’d be happy for Margarito, because things being what they are Margarito giving Trinidad a beating might do more for him on the whole than beating up on Cotto did.
That’s a strange place to find yourself in as a fan, though, because I think even Ricky would admit that he’d be more interested in Margarito/Clottey than he would Margarito/Trinidad. And that’s the position I hear Ryan taking, the position that says as fight fans we just have to make our peace with the fact that boxing occupies the place that it does today and forget about all of this revivalist Rolling Stones-tour type crap because ultimately it does the sport more harm than good. If Cotto wins a Margarito rematch, would we want him to fight Chavez next? When does it stop? If Federer just went around playing Sampras all the time, we’d never have gotten Federer/Nadal – we’d have been too lost in the past to appreciate the present.
Both sides of this line are compelling to me. Honestly, I lean towards the Margarito fights Tito (at least as a fantasy) camp because I see what these guys put themselves through to make their money. Their careers are comparatively short and they don’t make much in endorsements for the most part. Plus, they have a ton of expenses and the capital that they themselves spend to be professional boxers is quite literally their lives, their brains, their well-being. As far as I’m concerned, a fighter like Margarito, especially after that Cotto masterpiece, should be flatout fucking fucking rich, so rich that he could make Chad Johnson his pissboy if he wanted to, so rich that no one in his family or their families will ever have to work again.
But obviously, that’s not the world we live in. What did Margs pull for Cotto, you think? What I heard is that he was getting 1.5 mill guaranteed and a share of the PPV, the numbers of which still haven’t been released (although the rumor is that they’re very strong – upwards of 500k). Is he going to make even close to that for a Clottey fight? Is that even PPV, that thing? I know Bob Arum is talking Dodger Stadium, Showtime PPV, blah blah blah, but seriously – Margarito/Clottey as the headliner for a $50 PPV card? Maybe I’m being too pessimistic, but I just don’t see it.
I do see it being a great fight, though. Believe me, I’d be ringside in a heartbeat, whereas honestly, I’m not sure I’d bother to get on a plane to see Margarito fight Tito. It’s just one of those vexing things about being a boxing fan these days – often what makes sense just doesn’t seem to make dollars.
August 11th, 2008 at 12:43 am
“often what makes sense just doesn’ seem to make dollars.”
ohhhh…i think you just made ryan puke…lol
nah large…i agree that you have adequately reasserted my claim…but ill say this
i still feel like tito is a legit opponent…first off…im am not borqiqua…and have no ties to tito whatsoever…not even a tito fan….but…he and his people claim they feel that oscar was never serious about the rematch and that he was being used as leverage(and i fully admit this may be a claim by titos people in order to actually get the fight)….i agree that tito would much rather get in the ring with oscar than margs…but if oscar dont happen for tito…shooot…margs can do worse…i know im talking catch weight at 162 here…but you know both men at prime 147, which for margs is right now, tito is still the betting favorite
August 11th, 2008 at 7:21 am
If the PPV numbers were so good, why not release them?
August 11th, 2008 at 7:51 am
I’d love for Money to come out and upstage Oscar and fight Margo.
Say something like I found someone worthy of a fight not some washed up has been on a farewell tour.
August 11th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Ricky is actually my boy…I had no idea…and he had no idea…so that was pretty funny…and I can say for sure I take most of the shots I made in my post back because he is without a doubt a true fight fan…and most def not an accountant either haha. I don’ feel passionately one way or the other about who Margarito fights next…if he fought Tito I would catch the replay and hope Tito lives to tell his kids about the dumbest fight he ever took…if he fights Clottey I watch…and my money is on Clottey to beat him…I would most look forward to a rematch with p will…I enjoy fights not fighters…and I think there are better fights out there for the champ at 147 than a sideshow at a catch more than 2 weight classes above.
This guy did not fight Cotto for an easy payday…he fought him for the title…and if he sticks to what got him here he is going to defend it and make plenty of money win or lose because his style is such he will always be in a great fight…and great fights often get a second and third showing…who knows maybe some other guys can make money…maybe p will and maybe clottey become stars too…all these guys can do a lot for eachother at this point…no need to be skittish…the argument is its “out of the box” to fight tito and get some cash fast and then go do some tough work at 147…I disagree…seems pretty cookie cutter to me…seems like we saw tito beat on for cash more than once lately…when people wanna make money…they think floyd oscar and tito…why don’ they think of fighting the best in great fights…?…so what if clottey beats him…if its a great fight nobody lost.
Its a real thin line to toe when talking about a fighters health when defending a meaningless fight…and I don’ ever let a fighters health come into play when hoping he selects so and so for an opponent…its hypocritical…”oh I want him to fight this guy cuz there’s less chance of long term injury”…meanwhile he’s still boxing and presumably he’s going to box in tougher fights after…and has been in many tough fights already…if I don’ want to see a guy potentially hurt…I don’ want to see him in a fight…period…that’s sort of why this word “warrior” gets bandied about…because some of these guys aren’ just boxers looking to avoid any potential punishment or take no risks and still try to get as much cash as they can…they are warriors.
Margarito is a warrior and I would hate to see the typical bullshit business of boxing corrupt his camp and alter the path he has been on his whole career in favor of the path that seemingly everybody is trying to take…least risk most reward…fuck that…go for the glory…that’s why you started this shit in the first place. It’s normal for a guy to look to cash an easy paycheck…it would be out of the box to sit at 147 and defend against the best available opponent…risky or not…maybe I’m alone in this…but I wanna see dangerous fights with high drama and plenty of action that decide who is the best in class.
Ricky if this was Trinidad from 7 years ago…I would love this fight at 147…go back and get that guy and I’m all for this fight…it would be a classic…but that guy is lonnnnng gone…and Tony might have Tito going out like Apollo…let it go my brother.
PS
Anybody see the dude at the UFC weigh in rocking the No Mas logo shirt…? haha
August 11th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
When doing the “dollars and sense” calculus, there seems to be one good option for Margarito — take a rematch, not with Clottey, but with Cotto. Let’s face it — despite the loss, Cotto has a much, much larger name than Clottey does right now. Shit, Margs-Cotto actually got a minute on Sportcenter, which is obviously the buzz barometer for what makes a fighter. Its a relatively no-lose situation for Margs. If he loses, he sets himself up for a lucrative rubber match. Vazquez-Marquez III times ten — more popular fighters at a more popular weight. And if he wins….well, if he wins, he will have vanquished a great fighter twice, he will be closer to becoming a “name” in his own right, and just might become big enough to lure Floyd out of retirement and get the Stupid Stupid Money fight he so definitely deserves.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
I like the idea of the rematch…I think everyone does…but with that beating Cotto took he may need some time to heal up…its a viable option but not for this year probably…Tony is going to be just fine from here on out…million plus paydays against clottey williams cotto or shane mosely…and if he wins em all…then people are coming to him to make the money not the other way around…but win or lose the way this guy fights no matter what happens we could be looking at a rematch…hence Cintron twice…and everybody here wants to see him in rematches with clottey cotto and williams
August 12th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Alright, I had to get away from this debate for a few days cause I started to feel like my head was gonna explode. No puking Ricky, just an urge to constantly bang my head against a wall.
Look, I get the idea…Margarito hasn’t had a ridiculous payday in line w/ the type of animal he is. I said it after the Cotto fight, I’m just genuinely happy for the guy after what he’s had to go through in getting big fights. BUT, he’s not getting Oscar, and Floyd would probably sooner burn all of his money (literally) than fight Tony. Fact is, aside from Oscar & PBF, there really isn’t anyone in all of boxing that would bring him such a huge fight money-wise.
Williams is a $4 million fight, but that could be much bigger by next summer. Mosely is still out there, although he may not be ready by the beginning of November. So what I’m proposing is he act like a champion, and do what nobody else wanted to do when he was on the other side of the equation…fight the best. That means, yes, Clottey and/or PWill.
The reason I found (and still do) the Tito proposal asanine Ricky, is for one, I don’t think it makes a shit ton of money. Secondly, you proposed they fight at 162? Not. Gonna. Happen. Again, he’s the welterweight champ, he’s never fought above 154 (let alone 160), and there’s no reason for him to do so now. I guess I’m firmly in the same camp as Butch. The Cotto rematch will happen, and I truly believe Margs would fight him again tomorrow, but Cotto needs a long rest and a comeback tuneup or two.
And Large, no Cohibas on an island for me. Just a Dutchie rolled w/ some of the finest, lime green hydro south of Canada. Oh, and if you can bite this design and screen it on some T’s, I’ll buy a dozen…
http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/the_sporting_blog/entry/view/10822/undrcrw
August 12th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Ok, just one last thing and I’ll drop it. This line, Large, articulated my point better than I was able to in your previous post when this all started…
“[T]he position that says as fight fans we just have to make our peace with the fact that boxing occupies the place that it does today and forget about all of this revivalist Rolling Stones-tour type crap because ultimately it does the sport more harm than good.”
While this might make me initially feel pretty goddamn forlorn or outright depressed, I don’t think this is a bad thing for us as fight fans. I wish the general sporting public looked at this sport the way we do here, but they don’t, and when they do take notice every now and then, they seem to fuck it up for the diehards. Exhibit A: Goldie-May. I know this is apples and bowling balls, and I’m getting off point, but Floyd’s huge payday means we’ll never know if the dude was on the same level as Ray Leonard (he wasn’t/isn’t) or where he falls in line historically.
But back to Margs…Tony’s gonna get paid. I think Mosley would be the perfect solution for everyone here, and I can definitely see that going down if Arum can somehow get Margs a later date. I have no clue on the logistics of that (can HBO just find a new fight for 11/1 and put it on regular HBO?), but I’d love to see it. And if he goes out and beats Clottey again, then the PWill rematch is huge, and marketable.
Anyway, as always, great stuff in making me question my boxing dogma Large & Ricky. And has everyone been watching the atrocity that is Olympic scoring? Amazing.
August 13th, 2008 at 1:32 am
Talking bout olympia (and yes, the scoring sys sucks), if you can’t see the boxing stuff..
http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/olympics/ there you should find a decent stream from every event.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
As a fight fan, I don’t mind seeing either Clottey or Williams fight Margarito and at this point Margo just needs to keep fighting and winning on HBO. As Ryan pointed out, if Margarito wants a big name not named Trinidad (and DK has basically said that Tito won’t come down to 160 ’cause he’s lazy) – it’s likely Shane Mosley. Granted Shane does not have quite the PPV or gate appeal that Tito does but the Garden didn’t even sell out for Tito/Jones and MSG reportedly took a bath. I believe the Dolans gave King around 8 mil for a site fee – they got hosed. Assuming Mosley gets past Mayorga – it sets up an interesting fight that you would presume Margarito would win. Cotto seemed to be willing to keep fighting tough guys until one shot him down – now it’s Margarito’s turn. Bring on Clottey or Williams.
Then again, if I’m Margarito’s management, I think I take the Kelly Pavlik rout. Rather than a Tito (or a Clottey/Williams) – I look at a guy like Roberto Garcia. A Tex-Mex who I could fight on the Tex-Mex border in front of a roaring crowd and beat the piss out of him. Garcia’s strong but comes right at you and gets hit. It would be fun while it lasted (which means no whining from Larry Merchant)and a nice reprieve until either Mosley shakes loose or Cotto is ready for another beatdown. If I’m managing Margarito – I want no part of either Clottey or Williams again.
August 14th, 2008 at 12:43 am
from the sporting blog comments: Dave’s ideal society is one that is govern by the Pope, Dali Lama, Warren Jeff and Osama Bin Ladin.
haha made me laugh. interesting post though, seems to me that the media is doing it’s utmost to jump on anything possible to discredit the games. It smells a bit of thinly veiled racism/xenophobia. Like you say we have no idea what’s going on in the background, whether we should care I guess is your point. I think all countries hosting an olympics try to clean things up somewhat, I know here in Sydney the games was used as a massive gentrification project and there were plans to move inner city indigenous folks up to the mid north coast.
anyway.. you got any plans for any olympics up in here?
August 14th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Dang the Golden boy is a punk. Carting out another “Contender”? For a PPV?
His cred is absolute zero right now as far as I am concerned. Margo vs Oscar had to happen now that the Pac-man fight is “over”. He is cheapening the sport. IMO
August 14th, 2008 at 7:57 am
I think Margarito should fight Tyson or Vlad…haha!
O.K. so The Rooster hasn’t jumped in on this topic because The Rooster feels Tito isn’t a point. Although, as pointed out, it does make a good story in the sense of a PR coming back to avenge the loss of a fellow country man. But what does that accomplish. If Tito wins then Cotto will never been looked at in the same light and Margarito will be called a phony for being beat up by an old Trinidad. Also, The Rooster lives Uptown NYC…about two blocks from Spanish Harlem and nobody there really thinks Tito is the man anymore anyways. Listen to what The Rooster says, For The Rooster lives amongst them folk.
Also, remember it was The Rooster that said Tony by late KO. Need The Rooster say more? Yes. So The Rooster shall.
I, The Rooster, think it was Large that said Tony looked pretty puffy around the eyes after the fight. Make no mistake about it, Tony took some punishment in that fight and might need a tune-up fight before Williams and or Cottey.
Also, The Rooster agrees, that as long as Tony stays on track he will have two big paydays coming up soon enough. There are no real mega fights for Tony unless the Mosley and Margarito fight takes place at the Staples Center. As we know that will draw because it is a regional fight and they both have their followings in the area.
In closing, The Rooster thinks that Tony should take a tune-up fight that is not Pay-Per-View to get a few more followers then maybe have a double hitter. Him and Williams in tune-up fights on the same card with the winners meeting one another.
August 14th, 2008 at 10:53 am
I think the rooster has made one too many trips to the juice bar for a shot of tiger bone…or maybe the rooster has been making one too many visits to the world famous 204 and Post Avenue either way the rosster is ok with me.